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So, this got posted again I see. A few years later: the pack is still going strong and has not - so far - shown any signs of wear. I've put close to 15000 Km on it now and there is no degradation worth mentioning, though I suspect that if I do a precise capacity measurement that it would definitely show some reduced capacity.

The really neat thing is that at the end of a long ride the cell groups still track to within 2 mV of each other, which is a strong sign that all cell groups are discharging equally fast and that there are no cells or welds that are causing problems. Of course with 17P the cells are only mildly exercised compared to what they would be going through in a regular pack.

What surface conditions do you ride this in? I spent this morning on my Specialized Levo (1) and ran down the entire battery over the course of about 2.5 hours, covering 36 km and 1400 meters of elevation, much of the downhill being at "mach chicken", with drops, doubles, locked up dirt surfing, etc. There is 0% probability I would take this long range e-bike to that terrain. Which is fine. But I'm pretty sure your frame wasn't designed to carry this 22 pound battery or anything like it, so are you exclusively riding this on buttery smooth Dutch roads?

(1) a few years old now, but keeps up with my buddy riding the new-new version https://upway.co/products/specialized-turbo-levo-comp-carbon...

> I'm pretty sure your frame wasn't designed to carry this 22 pound battery or anything like it

Presumably bike frames are designed to carry larger riders? 22 pounds is well within the normal range of "adult". Apparently most bike frames are designed for riders up to 120kg - so the OP could easily be 40+kg below that.

Bikepaths, mostly.

> I hope this article will inspire people to look at e-bikes as potentially commuter car replacement, to send Bosch and other e-bike technology manufacturers a message that if they won’t supply what people need that they are going to have to live with people hacking their stuff

Did this ever happen?

Commercially, no, but I have been asked for a lot more details and pack building advice over the years and there are quite a few of these now, as far away as Japan and the United States, and of course not everybody will contact me so in that sense it was a success. The pictures tell the story, really, the most important thing is to handle the balancing wires correctly, that's a 'minor detail' that unfortunately even professional designers often get wrong with really bad outcomes as the result.

Balancing wires and physical damage to the pack because of insufficient rigidity of the shell and a lack of shock absorbing material are the main causes of pack problems, water ingestion and bad materials / manufacturing defects are also a real problem.

The balancing wires, shell rigidity, shock absorbers and seals are all on the manufacturer, how you treat the pack and monitor it is on the user.

The worst are the pannier mounted ones, I personally think these should all be recalled and replaced. I've seen more than a few of those that had internal signs of fire damage and that must have come within a hair of thermal runaway.

The setup looks lovely! How heavy is it in real life? Just curious. Is it, say, as heavy as a small moped or motorcycle or not that big of a deal? My only fear of trying this out is if the bike falls on its side, how difficult it might be to lift it back up. TIA

Much lighter than a moped, but way heavier than a normal bike, I estimate the total to weigh about 33 Kg, but there is a big set of bike bags on there as well.

Thanks! I'm also currently exploring drivetrain options. I know this sounds crazy, but I'm working on implementing an e-CVT like in the Toyotas, they are actually super efficient and very comfy. I'm not really a fan of hub motors, so I went with some smaller out-runners. Your project has forced me to resume my gearbox project now :)

There is - or was - a Finnish company doing precisely that. Google 'Revonte', amazing little product they made.

Thanks, will check it out. BTW, been your follower since early in the decade. Love your content!

Thank you :)

How much is the weight when the pack is fully charged? xD

I'm curious, how much does this weigh? I've ridden e-bikes a few times, and it's always surprising how much heavier they are than ordinary bikes. I can't imagine how heavy this must be.

170 cells, they're 45 grams each, the pack mounting hardware and box adds another two kilos or so, so say 10 Kg in all for the pack. Definitely not a lightweight :) But once it's going you hardly notice the weight other than when you have a pothole or bump. It also obviously isn't as nimble as a lighter bike but it is still very well manageable because the weight is relatively low.

What's interesting is that the duct tape is still the same, it never even cracked or tear. I don't particularly care about the looks, it just needs to work.

190 cells is 9-9.5kg, a mid-drive motor like the one in the picture is typically 3-7kg depending on power. This is roughly 12-17kg/26-37lbs of extra weight plus the enclosure, electronics, and wiring.

Yeah the assistance you get from a bike being light is huge. I wonder if expensive light bike > assisted bike in terms of saving human effort per trip.

Obviously if the e-bike requires no pedalling at all it wins but then that is not legal everywhere.

Human effort just isn't worth very much. The strongest humans on earth can manage about 400W for an hour. Even very small ebike motors are usually capable of 500w continuous/forever, so long as the motor does not spend too much time stalled or at very low speeds.

For a normal human, a "legal" 250w motor is easily doubling or tripling their normal power output, so hauling around an extra 20kg on top of the existing ~100kg body + bike is not a big deal.

A heavy battery makes an ebike extremely unpleasant to pedal manually. You should try it.

I built almost exactly the same size pack (2 kWH) as Jacques in 2020 on a hybrid road bike and hated it so much that I only rode it 20 times or so. The battery still sits in the corner of my house doing nothing.

On a flat road I disagree, but uphill you notice it a lot of course, but way worse is carrying the heavy bike. I take mine into trains a lot and unfortunately there are often lots of stairs and no escalators involved.

I would never take this one into a train. I'm pretty sure it is a better pack (and much better monitored) than a store bought one given what I've seen inside of those but still, the amount of energy stored in there is pretty impressive and just the thought of it going into thermal runaway is enough to ensure that will never expose other people to it.

That is very considerate of you, but my bike has a very small standard battery (in comparison). Still, it would be good if trains offered a way to store the bikes in a special place away from people (at the end of the train for instance) so this won't be an issue.

Have a look at some videos of what it looks like when a pack lights off in an enclosed space. You'll come away equal parts impressed and horrified, especially at the speed and the intensity.

Will do that, but since I life in a mountainous area with only a rudimentary network of public transport, the alternative is taking the car.

Yes, that's a nasty spot to be in. I'm not sure how well this setup would work in more mountainous regions, here it is pretty flat except for the roads around Arnhem, especially the Gelderse Vallei where it feels - to my dutch legs anyway - pretty steep. But that's the only bit of hills that are worthy of the name, the rest is a flat as the proverbial pancake.

As for those videos: beware, there are also fake ones (there are about anything that gets clicks these days), but also many genuine ones. Not for the faint of heart.

It goes without saying that you need the electrical components to be operational and assisting, otherwise yes you are just hauling around weight for the sake of it. As the other commenter mentions though, on flat terrain this doesn't matter much (since wind resistance tends to make up most of the friction at speed, and is independent of weight)

I forget the weight is just regular weight not weight on the wheels. Good point.

I think the main difference due to weight boils down to you riding in one gear lower when not using assistance.

On flat roads, I usually ride on 3rd or 4th gear (out of 7), now i ride in 2nd or 3rd.

But where i ride, the road isn't even and has a lot of steep slopes. There I'm on 1st gear all the time anyway and the assistance i get totally saves my knees, and ensures I'm not all sweaty when i reach my destination. Even compared to the light weight regular bicycles i rode before, this is better.

Once at speed you can maintain tempo in the highest gear on this bike. It does consume a lot of power that way but it is also really neat to be doing a 65 km ride in what is much less than twice the time that it takes to do that same trip by car.

How’s your sperm? That’s quite a strong field. R squared and all that.

Sort of a hijack, but it rides on the awesomeness that e-bikes can bring about. They truly are incredible if you have never gotten to ride one.

E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes

E-peds, e-motos, electric motorycle, whatever. Just don't call them ebikes.

The problem is people (especially kids) getting what are essentially electric motorcycles, thinking they are ebikes, and then causing all sorts of chaos on roads and bike paths. This inevitably leads to the public hating "e-bikes" and the government passing totally confused laws about "e-bikes". This also leads to kids getting killed because mom and dad bought them an "e-bike" and let them loose on the roads with it.

Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, while still providing exercise. It's a revolution for society, but we have to be careful to not totally fumble it with electric motorcycle death machines.

As an oldster who used to do weekly century rides and lost that ability due to nerve damage in my foot (thanks to decades of wearing pointy Italian riding shoes), I’d love it if we could focus on simply enforcing laws that exist rather than saddling arbitrary blanket regulations on lawful citizens.

I built an ebike and hell yes I put a throttle on it because it enables me to ride more technical trails. This bike has dramatically increased my quality of life. Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.

I'm sypathetic but ... unlike cars, bikes don't have large each to read license plates. People will scream about facial recognition. I'm not trying to take away your freedom. I've just wished they'd enforce traffic laws on cyclists but it's just not going to happen and cyclists know it so they almost all break traffic laws with impunity.

You know what happens when a cyclist is involved in a traffic accident they cause? They might get hurt or cause some minor property damage. When the driver of a car is at fault they kill other people, so I'm not too worried about even negligent bike riders causing an accident.

We recently had a funeral for people killed in an accident that was not caused by the car driver. When cars and bikes share the same space, it might be an impact with a car that kills somebody, but that impact might be the result of a chain of actions initiated by a bicyclist.

Drivers are actually not supposed to crash into people, regardless of where they are. If you can't react fast enough to the situation around you while driving a car, you were driving too fast, full stop.

Don't victim blame.

False. If you jump in front of a car who has the right of way and is not speeding it's not the driver's fault. The victum in this case is the driver who has done nothing wrong. The perp is the person who broke the law and faces the consequences.

"Not speeding" doesn't matter. Going below the speed limit does not give you a license to run people over.

The victim is the one who's injured or dead.

Must be nice to live in a world simpler than the one I do. Your broad generalization has so many deficiencies that I actually deleted what I was writing. There are countless exceptions to your hasty generalization.

If that's how you want to redefine the term, sure, ok. But the "victim" in this particular scenario is the one at fault.

As a pedestrian I find your analysis a bit myopic... but on par for far too many cyclists.

Large license plates don't prevent cars from regularly breaking traffic laws. The percentage of cyclists who come to a complete stop at all stop signs and red lights is higher than the percentage of drivers who strictly follow the speed limit.

License plates do not seem to prevent dangerous and illegal behavior in cars, why should they help for bikes?

I can stand at any corner in any city in the USA and count the percent of cars that stop vs the percent of bikes that stop. Bikes about 1 of 10 will stop. Cars at least 4 of 5 will stop. So, cyclists, 10% compiliance. car drivers, 80% compliance.

As for license plates, I'd like both cars and bikes to obey the law. The only way I see that happening is cameras and scanners. For that to stop bikes requires the bikes to also have plates.

Unclear what you traffic scenario you are referring to, but in some localities (such as WA state) it is legal for bikes to roll through stop signs in certain scenarios. This makes sense considering a bike’s speed, its rider’s engagement, and the overall difficulty of killing a pedestrian with a bike (compared to a vehicle).

The difference is of course that cyclists mostly endanger themselves where as cars mostly endanger others.

Now do one for speed limit compliance.

Cars and bikes behave differently, that’s not surprising. If you spend any time in traffic you will see many cars speeding and leaving enough space.

License plates absolutely prevent dangerous and illegal behavior in cars, just not 100% of it.

It's hilarious to see all the responses that are effectively "others break the law more!"

The license plate issue is that cities can, and are, adding more and more license plate scanners to catch cars. Those won't work for bicycles and ebikes (who drive like cyclists) unless they require license plates on bikes/ebikes and enforce. Yes, and enforce more on cars too.

Japan has bicycles with license plates. It's clearly possible.

They don't have license plates, they have mandatory registration stickers. You can't read it unless you look closely at the sticker while the bike is stopped. It's to identify owners of stolen bikes, not identifying running bikes.

To be clear, when the OP wrote "Japan has bicycles with license plates", it is important to clarify the term "bicycle". It would more accurate to say "motorized bicycle". If you ride something that looks like a bicycle where you can power it only with a throttle button (no pedalling required), then it requires a license plate, at least in Tokyo. Explanation here: https://www.city.inagi.tokyo.jp/en/kurashi/zeikin/1002693/10...

Also, you can ask Google AI for more sources and info using this prompt:

    japan when does a bike require a license plate?

Alright, a moped requires a plate. That's not a bike.

And I don't need to ask AI, I used an e-bike (without a licence plate) last week in Tokyo.

You know who generally stops at a stop sign or stoplight? People on an e-bike, compared to people riding for sport or commuting on road bikes. It's not a big deal to stop and get started again when you have a motor. It's a pain in the ass when you're trying to make it to work on time with your legs.

Why is having a license plate even relevant here? Most traffic enforcement is done when an officer sees something happen.

How else will a witness be able to report the get-away bike in a bank robbery?

‘He’s is on a bike carrying 7 large sacks of cash’.

>> Please leave me alone and if someone uses a throttle bike in an illegal manner give them a ticket.

Well in most jurisidictions just the throttle is an "illegal manner", and if you're riding technical trails because of it I have no sympathy for your condition or improved quality of life; you're screwing it up for the rest of us. Maybe you should be the one who leaves.

[dead]

I agree. I thought the electric motorcycle problem was overstated by people complaining online at first. Then they became popular around my house and I agree it’s a huge problem.

I’m fortunate enough to live around a lot of walking and mixed use trails for bikes and pedestrians. Recently they’re unsafe to use in the evenings because you have to be ready to jump out of the way of groups of kids (plus a few adults who should know better) going 45mph on electric bikes with throttles. They don’t even pretend to be e-bikes any more.

The big problem is that there is zero enforcement. If there was at least a chance that someone breaking these laws could lose their bike or have to pay thousands of dollars in fines I think we’d see a lot less of it. Right now everyone knows that they’re not going to get caught, so it’s a free for all.

why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH? would it be better with pedals and people peddling along in some only-would-ever-make-sense-on-an-ebike gear, but still going 45?

the problem is recklessnesss and speed, restrict and enforce those things, don't just let the bike makers shift the product 10% and re-create exactly the same issue, but "legally"

> why is the throttle the issue and not just the 45MPH?

The bikes with throttles are not legally e-bikes, so the products on the market ignore all of the other e-bike restrictions too. They have much more power and higher top speeds.

Even if they were fully limited, pedaling ensure more rider engagement and changes how people ride them. When you have to put some effort, however small, into moving the bike around you ride differently than if it's an effortless throttle input.

There are plenty of ebikes with throttles that have less power than ebikes without throttles. E.g. a lectric xpress 500 has 500 watts, there are some pedal assist only bikes with 750 or more watts.

It's power and speed that matters, as you point out, so make regulation built on that. Heck, arguably pedal assist is a throttle, it's just a different mechanism vs a twist handle.

I believe this to be growing pains. Legislation hasn't yet fully adapted, some of the legislation I've seen makes the mistake of conflaing these, and enforcement is nonexistent in most places. I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish. Around me the biggest thing I've seen is parents on cargo bikes taking their kids, and that's a demographic that elected officials tend to listen to.

We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. I think they need a higher tier of penalties for the repeat offenders, but that would require anyone getting caught first.

It’s an enforcement problem.

The riders know they’re riding where police cars can’t get them. They also know that the bike cops aren’t allowed to ride ultra powerful electric motorcycles. They also know they can just drive off across some grass into a park if anyone tries to stop them.

It’s a hard problem.

> I suspect that as time passes, we'll find ways of allowing ebikes to flourish.

Electric bikes are flourishing here. Electric motorcycles on bike paths are the problem.

I think the electric term is confusing the issue. If it helps, imagine that these were just really quiet but powerful gas powered dirt bikes riding on the pedestrian path. That should give you an idea of what’s going on.

> We have the laws. What they’re doing is illegal. … It’s an enforcement problem.

Because some people think laws only ever exist to restrain as a show of power over others and something is only illegal if you get caught.

And some people just want to be contrarian and acting against the law is the ultimate punching-up.

Some laws are just a good idea, and provide benefit, or even just expectation/predictability, to everyone.

Japan puts these uturn fences up. The sign near the uturn part says "get off your bike and walk it"

https://pasteboard.co/IlXSlFUOgULW.png

I'm not sure how I feel about them. I like that the made a way to get you off your bike. I dislike that the path seems plenty wide enough to accomodate bikes and that it would be a useful bike path or 1/2 bike path, but they want it to 100% pedestrian path, even though it's not remotely crowded.

Why are they illegal in the first place? Obviously people see value in such devices. They don't ride them for the sake of riding them without getting caught.

They have great utility, with their power, weight and size. They can be fast for sure, but it's also not on the same level as even a 300cc motorbike either - should they really be put into the same basket? How can that be enveloped by law - if it really has to be - without taking their utility away?

If the law is too restrictive, current users won't bother following, since the enforcement is so rare.

The discussion really depends on which country we're talking about, but basically speed bikes are not illegal. They're just considered as moped, meaning a 50cc motorbike and have to respect all the rules mopeds are subject to, such as:

- Having a license plate and back mirror

- Be insured

- Wear a helmet (not a bike helmet, a moped/motorcycle helmet)

- Drive on the road, not on bike lanes

Nobody is arguing they're equivalent to a 300cc motorbike.

I know what you're talking about, but a lot of people are conflating them. In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them. In others it's parents not realizing that they got their kids an electric dirt bike instead of an ebike. Of course, you do have the antisocial element of people not caring and actually seeking out these, but we need to separate the different problems to address them, as you are doing.

> In some cases it is legislators like a recent attempt to require ebikes have to register and have a drivers' license for them.

Has any legislation been passed or was this only a proposal?

Crazy legislation gets proposed all the time with no possibility of passing. Some times no intent of passing, either.

I made a comment below about the law that just passed in New Jersey. The short of it is "Anything with two wheels and a motor is now legally a motorcycle, and must follow all the laws and regulations of motorcycles.

Motorcycle cops can ride faster than any e-bike, and go anywhere a bicycle can.

A car too, but you might kill the suspect [1]. Chasing kids on e-bikes down with motorcycles is asking for deathly accidents to happen.

[1] https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2025/06/03/12-year-old-boy-dies...

Driving what's better described as an electric dirt bike with street tires through pedestrian paths is also asking for dead pedestrians?

That is not to be blamed on the cops. Let's try to be truthful.

This reaction is interesting to me. In many jurisdictions around the world, police are required to call off a chase if it is deemed unsafe for any reason.

In what world do you think it is OK for a 12-year-old boy riding an e-scooter to die after being chased by police? Before you respond: Ask yourself how you would react if it was your son (or close relative). Any parent would devasted.

I don't participate in clan mentality, where every tragedy has to be blamed on an outsider. An accident is tragic, it doesn't make it any less tragic that it was the kid's own fault. Or if you can't stand not having somebody else to blame, it's clearly the parent's fault.

Both sides are to be blamed, only one side are professional adults who are trained protect our community. A pursue is always dangerous, not only for the suspect but also for the cops and bystanders so it should not be done if not absolutely necessary.

Setting aside the question who is to be blamed, using motorcycles to pursue kids on bikes will cause the deaths of more kids. Is that a price worth paying? No.

As someone who has spent a lot of time riding both bicycles and motorized things, this is not true at all.

I could hop my bicycle over curbs that would bring a police motorcycle to a halt, or even toss a bike over a fence and then pick it up on the other side if I wanted. Or I could dip into the trees near the bike path where a police motorcycle has no chance of maneuvering.

Buy that time there cop is also on foot to chase you down.

This is not even remotely true.

in my area, one of the biggest groups using those vehicles were food delivery riders. for those guys, those electric mopeds were a gamechanger, as they were able to make many more runs that might have made the difference between "just enough" and "just not enough". now those are becoming illegal (on bike paths & without registration), but they're not making sense one the roads due to congestion. it's a lose-lose situation for the delivery riders and the people that order online, but a win for bicycle safety.

as far as i can tell most full time riders didn't switch to "pedal assisted e-bikes" but probably went looking for other work. we're back to students riding their private bicycles to make some money on the side.

again, you're confusing/conflating the definition of ebike. The problem is not a senior or disabled person using a pedal assist bike; it's electronic motorcycles being ridden like they're bicycles, by underage, inexperienced kids without protection. This is going to turn out much worse for everybody; look what New Jersey has done for ALL ebikes because of the lack of understanding that there is a big difference between a pedal-assist mountain bike and an electronic motorcycle.

>> Starting January 20, 2026, all e-bike riders in New Jersey need three things: a license, registration, and insurance. You have until July 19, 2026 to get these sorted out.

You might have replied to the wrong subthread.

Try speed bumps ?

Cyclists on track bikes going 30+ mph on mixed use trails are almost as bad.

You either ride responsibly or you're a selfish asshole. The vehicle doesn't matter as much.

Over here track bikes are not road legal and people who can legit hit 30 mph for any amount of time is maybe 1/1000. Any 12 year old kid that can convince their parents to buy them a $1000 Chinese e-bike can hit 30mph with no effort. In no way are sports cyclists as bad a problem.

The problem is the rider not the bike.

Easy for you to say. I’ve almost hit a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles riding on suburban roads at night with no lights.

And I’m seeing more and more fuckwits ride fast on side walks and accelerate to jump of the sidewalk and into traffic. Almost hitting unsuspecting people on the sidewalk.

Community needs to police itself. Otherwise it’s just going to be waiting for a critical mass of deaths.

>> a couple stupid kids on an e-bikes with throttles

I'm going to respond every time I see this: not ebikes; these are electronic motorcycles.

And this is from someone who thinks ebike are pretty stupid; justified for old and disabled people but only ever seen ridden by fat dentists.

A throttle is excellent on an e-bike especially for city riding. It is far easier to move at slow speeds by applying a small amount of throttle vs. trying to torque the pedals just the right amount, if behind someone or near pedestrians.

Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed.

> Many e-bikes don't have torque sensors and instead use a cheap rotation sensor so the motor engages almost randomly at certain points in pedal rotation when moving at slow speed.

Today, those are mostly limited to Walmart-tier quality e-bikes. Even the very next step up (still big box store bikes) usually come with torque sensors.

I really like a low speed throttle, like 3-5mph max is fine. 20mph is too fast and results in ebikes basically designed a motorcycles that cannot be pedaled. The throttle is so nice to have to get started quickly like turning left at a light, if you didn't have time to downshift before stopping, on a hill, or if the bike is heavily loaded with stuff. Its also nice to be able to use to slowly move between cars with your feet off the pedals to keep balance if needed.

Those are legal, at least in the EU. It's called "push support" or "walk assist", my bike engages it when I long-press the down button. It's purpose is to help you push the heavy e-bike up ramps and hills, but I mainly use it as a throttle when I ride behind my toddler on his balance bike.

It's closer to 3mph than 5mph, and as such needs some slow-riding skills, but it works.

I don't understand that point. Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs? Its really frustrating and silly that I have to go through the motions (literally) of riding a bicycle if I want to get the priviledge of using a bike lane or going without a license plate. (At least that's the case here in Germany AFAIK).

They could go ahead and make "fast electric bikes" and "slow electric bikes" or something as categories and that would make sense - but hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical. I think it is actually morally charged - like you have to put in the work if you want the privilege.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

We can focus on clamping down of "faux pedal ebikes" when the time comes, but for now it looks like we'll be throwing out everything to just to stop teenagers on surrons.

> Why do e-bikes become better or more safe when you have to rotate your legs?

Because you're directly engaged in operating them. Electric handcycles are also legal, the problem isn't which body part it is, it's whether you're moving muscles to move your bike - and, perhaps more importantly, that your bike will stop accelerating when you stop your body.

"hinging the decision on whether your legs or your wrist is turning is illogical"

No it's not, it's recognizing the psychology between "big push with foot makes go fast" and "pressing button makes go fast".

Besides, if the only thing that matters is speed, then logically you'd have to require normal pushbikes to register as well, once cyclists are able to pedal sufficiently fast.

> recognizing the psychology between "big push with foot makes go fast" and "pressing button makes go fast".

And what is the psychological difference? As far as I'm concerned when I'm using torque-sensing pedal assist, I'm just pressing the button with my foot. The distinction between throttle and pedal assist is non existent in my eyes: pedal assist is just pressing the throttle with your foot.

Motor wattage and top speed is what matters.

How much riding does it take to hold 25mph? 12 months of solid riding? (This is being generous, many people will never hold this speed)

How much riding does it take to twist your arm 30 degrees?

You don’t see a difference?

Why would people have a hard time doing 25mph on a pedal assist bike that isn't limited to less than that?

They're talking about riding a regular bike at 25mph. Most people can't sustain that.

Most people cannot sustain it on a 750w mid drive e-bike either.

Are ebikes not legally restricted to 250W-ish in most countries?

That's the limit for continuous rated power. The motor's frequently have 600W-750W of peak power output, and can legally use this much for short amounts of time (usually seconds, like accelerating from a stop; but often also for going up a steep hill for several minutes).

Why does it matter how much riding it takes?

The point in distinguishing the different classes is about where the bike should fit into the ecosystem. Should it ride on the shoulder, interacting with pedestrians and slower bikes, or should it ride on the road, interacting with cars and motorcycles.

It doesn’t matter how much riding it takes, it matters how fast and controlled it is moving compared to the other traffic in that class.

The answer is cyclist gatekeeping? Or did I misunderstand your point?

Its easy, the accelerations are completely different and very hard to gauge. Also you have the elderly going speeds that does not mach their reactions, while also being unaware of how fast they are going. If you try biking with them it become very obvious how many dangerous situations they cause compared to true e-bike and normal bikes.

Pedal assist feels like amplifying your natural power. The boost it gives is perfectly matched with your own movements so it feels more like you are just super fit. And there is far less chance you can just slip and apply too much power unlike throttle controlled.

In my area, I think that non electric bikes are often more dangerous: they are often non tolerant of others and hesitant to slow down because of speed conservation. Especially in our hilly town. Easy "free" acceleration is plus here.

It's because absolutely everyone understands the proportional nature of "press pedals to go" while nobody without special training understands "turn wrist to go", especially not the crucial details of "untwist wrist to stop" and "by the way don't yank open the throttle while attempting a sharp turn".

> Pedal assist ebikes are incredible, and really just turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists

The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.

In particular quite a few elderly people seem to have picked it up in my city, they aren't quite strong riders but definitely seem able of adapting to normal traffic. It also seems like a significantly safer option for individual transport than cars (especially in regards to the other traffic participants).

> The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.

That's exactly my use case. I've got a bad leg and this thing made all the difference for longer rides.

I am impressed by your solution and I took have at least one bad leg. I have decided against batteries in favour of a basic bike that I can park anywhere and carry up stairs. I want the little and often mobility with a few longer rides over summer. I also have a neighbour in his late seventies that rides 'naturally aspirated' with a buddy that is two years older. His buddy has an ebike and he is giving it a couple of years before he goes electric.

Being younger than him, I feel that I need to stick with 'naturally aspirated'.

I am interested in going the other way to get a dynamo with that switchable between lighting and USB power, for my phone and speakers. There is 3A at 6V to play with.

Ultimately I would want mild hybrid, with regen so all assistance is pedal powered.

I'm 60+ it was either the e-bike, wreck my leg even further or take the car. That was an easy choice :)

Be careful with what you've got... I wish every day that I could do the day I messed up my leg again without making that particular mistake. I rode a low racer recumbent at speed and had a nasty case of leg suck when hitting a (new to me) speedbump.

> leg suck

I’d never heard of this and looked it up. It sounds awful.

https://www.utahtrikes.com/ARTICLE-119.html

It is. Life changing event that one. And it is not just trikes, low racer recumbents have the same problem (only worse, because they are much faster, they are probably some of the fastest bikes you can ride). I was literally airborne for a bit after already breaking my leg so this was the worst of all possible combinations other than that my head was not impacted at all due to posture (and wearing a helmet).

The more useful case ime is turning cyclists with reduced mobility into regular cyclists.

You mean, turn weak cyclists into strong cyclists, like GP said? :-)

No. Reduced mobility doesn't mean "weak." It means reduced mobility. It's right there in the words. People who cannot pedal much at all, even the motion, no matter how light it is. Joint issues / surgery, deformities, etc.

Don't be smarmy.

If you can't pedal at all, then an e-bike definitionally won't help you. An e-moped might be suitable.

You just repeated W²s point.

Elderly on a basically unlicensed motorcycle is a good recipe for injury. Pretty sure the stats look bad for this group especially

I think there are many more factors to it than that. I own a Radwagon, a cargo e-bike and I take my kids to school on it. It’s both pedal assist and has a throttle and maxes out at 20mph. I find the throttle very useful because the bike is pretty damn heavy with two kids on it and moving from a standing stop is much easier when I can give it a quick throttle burst then start pedalling.

All that said, I do agree the term is overloaded. The bike lines in NYC often have people riding electric mopeds in them and that feels dangerous. Their max speed is clearly way above 20mph and they’re bulky. They belong on the road with other mopeds. So IMO the definition of ebike should factor in max speed more than it should throttle vs not.

(And also, seconding the awesomeness of ebikes. My kids love riding on it and it’s allowed us to take so many trips that would have been difficult otherwise. It’s also allowed us to avoid buying a car, for now at least)

The problem with max speed is that while big legit ebike manufacturers respect it (e.g. you can't buy a Bosch ebike in the UK that will go above 15.5mph), you can easily get Chinese models that don't care, or you can mod other bikes that do fairly easily.

I don't know what the solution is tbh.

Why not just define the law in terms of maximum speed and be fine with it? Why nitpick over control modes?

I can guarantee that if I asked 10 random cops what the restrictions are of a Class 2 e-bike not more than 1 could answer, but if I asked them to stop people who were going over 30mph on the bike trail they could figure it out.

I agree the control mode restrictions are dumb. Lime-style ebikes have their assist set so high that you don't need to put any effort at all into pedaling. Effectively the pedals are the throttle.

But anyway that's nothing to do with the problem of ebike hooligans. The law is also defined in terms of maximum speed. Anyone going over 15.5mph (without pedaling really hard) is breaking the law.

It's not ambiguous when this is happening; it's just impractical for the police to do anything about it.

You can't "easily" modify an electric brushless motor to go faster than its Kv limit, to handle more current than its magnetic saturation limit, or to exceed the limits of back-EMF.

99% of the people whinging about ebikes have no idea what they're talking about.

There are people claiming in this very thread that kids are modding their "e-bikes" to go "45mph."

The power levels required to push a hybrid bicycle to 45mph is north of 3000W and thus well beyond the capabilities of the motors and battery packs in nearly all electric bicycles. Even the e-motos struggle to hit those speeds; you need a pretty high end, expensive one to do so.

Nobody is building ebikes that are physically speed limited by the motor windings. The top speed of a motor depends on load, and it's impossible to predict the exact load of a motor in a bike with a rider. Even if you could, the amount of excess torque available as you got near the top speed would be tiny - it wouldn't be fun to ride.

Speed limits are universally based on measured speed - either at the wheel or motor.

No, what the modders do is just disable the velocity dependent power limit on the standard e-bike power controllers. The easiest/hackiest way to do that is to install a pulse rate divider on the tachometer cables - bike goes 30mph, controller thinks it's going 10mph and delivers full power. This messes up the mileage counter and is trivially easy for the cops to spot, but it'll work.

> The power levels required to push a hybrid bicycle to 45mph is north of 3000W

Yeah, 45 mph is hyperbole. 45 kph is very easily doable on a standard 750W e-bike motor with <$1 of additional electronics. At that point it's all aero, so going even faster is mostly about rider position and bike geometry (those scooter looking things are going to be slower than a proper bike on 29" wheels).

Well, you can switch from high efficiency to field weakening once you run out of supply voltage to handle full field back EMF as you increase speed.

That can readily double your speed on flat or downhill terrain if normal torque is sized to give good acceleration from standstill.

[flagged]

…? Did I find the low effort troll?

(FWIW buying the bike had nothing to do with environmental concerns, I got it for financial and practicality reasons)

To me, that sounds like a task for your country’s lawmakers, rather than “Just don't call them ebikes”

Motorbikes need training, a license, insurance, registration, a minimum age, etc - and you’re competing with small petrol motorcycles which are cheap new, and plentiful on the used market.

E-bike makers aren’t going to volunteer for that - it’d destroy their business.

yeah this seems to be the catch 22 to me. the laws are out there to limit the e-bikes to speeds and power. i want an irresponsibly powered one because i have an endorsement and want a non-sketch electric motorcycle that isn't mad expensive compared to petrol bikes in north america.

but because that would indeed kill their market because most people don't have motorcycle licenses, no one gets them approved, or countries won't allow them.

New Jersey just passed some of the most onerous and short sighted ebike laws in the world last month.

Basically anything that has two wheels and a non-human energy source drive is now a motorcycle, requiring a license, registration (including a license plate), insurance, and a DOT approved motorcycle helmet, as well as This law came on the back of two teens being killed on ebikes last year.

This is the exact kind of idiotic knee-jerk legislation that will come from the public and governments general ignorance on the state of electric tandem wheel transportation.

So now in New Jersey, Betsy with her class 1 250W pedal assist ebike must get her license and don her motorcycle helmet while only riding on roads with her insured, registered, and license plated 15 mph bicycle.

Lawmakers aren't going to do their homework, they will just kneejerk appease the general public.

This is what happens when ebike companies take every opportunity to skirt the laws like putting easily removable limiters on motorcycles with pedals and a chain with a gear ratio that makes pedalling practically impossible.

I don't know if there was an existing attempt at regulation in NJ specifically but that's happening all around the country.

The problem is that, while ebikes have a ton of really good use cases, the big market for them is basically kids who want to drive a motorcycle before they're allowed. Ebike companies are going to try to sell to that market any way they can.

Why is it even legal to import illegal bikes into a country? Shut this thing at the source, make Amazon & co liable for ebikes that don't respect national legislation. The entire problem disappears in 6 months.

What national legislation are you even talking about?

One that prevents consumers from buying an electric motor and some batteries to run around their own property on? Good luck with that!

I doubt most people buy a motor and batteries and install them. I'm willing to bet 99% of accidents happen on cheap Chinese built ebikes.

>E-bike makers aren't going to volunteer for that it'd destroy their business.

Arguably, complete bans will be even worse for business.

As an alternative mode of transportation, that could/should replace car usage for many people, I think we need to separate the two completely as well. The throttle version needs to be regulated more like a motorcycle or moped. This would take it out of the hands of most kids and cause license suspension worries for young adults and other reckless users. I agree they are essentially death machines and governments generally have no sane approach to regulating them.

That said, I think the e-moto versions have more potential towards alleviating traffic or being an alternative mode of transportation as most people don’t want to peddle at all. E-bikes are great, but I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that would ever be on the average Joe’s list of feasible alternatives.

There is nothing standing in the way of electric motorcycles.

People get e-motos because it is effectively a motorcycle, except it doesn't have any road legality requirements. People treat them like bicycles that can just magically go 50mph.

> most people don’t want to peddle at all.

Most people don't want a two-wheeler, period. Otherwise everyone would be riding motorcycles. People want a vehicle that will keep them dry, comfortable, and safe. Two-wheelers of all types fail at all of those things.

Plenty of people will ride two wheelers if the infrastructure is good. Most places in the world just have crap infrastructure for using bicycles safely and calmly.

> could/should replace car usage for many people

Motorcycles already did that. E-bikes or E-motos do not bring any advantages compared to normal motorbikes, so you shouldn't expect many people to switch.

Cheaper, quieter, smaller footprint for storage, can be easily brought up a few stairs or put in the back of your car (by one person), slower (a perceived safety advantage by some, as most motorcycles can go highway speed), maintenance is less daunting (again, perceived), culture (perceived) as some people are quite turned off by motorcycle culture, and many many more.

One of the major problems with ebikes is the existence of cars and related infra.

Motorcycles have all those advantages against cars, except being able to bring them indoors. Yet people aren't all riding around on motorcycles. E-Bikes have their niche, but they're not going to replace cars, since motorcycles didn't.

Motorcycle culture is something you choose if you participate in. If you're a lady commuting to work on a scooter, few people will expect you to participate in that.

Is $$$ not an advantage? Motorbikes are at least triple the price AIUI, not to mention more regulated. The main advantage of an ebike is that it's basically a pushbike (in terms of cost) but it lets you be lazy and unfit while still using it successfully as if you were fit.

Yes, there's a few extra hundred bucks in cost, and there's an electricity bill for charging it, but frankly that's nothing. You can buy an ebike for 3 digits, and you could include the power bill in that figure and not notice.

> Is $$$ not an advantage?

Of course not, since motorcycles are much much cheaper than cars.

“E-bikes with throttles should not be refereed to as e-bikes”

This is simply wrong and does a disservice to the growing eBike interest. The US-federally defined classes are proper and while IMO overly limiting (max speed should be 60kph and still classified as an eBike as it’s simply safer in traffic), they adequately classify what is an eBike and what is not, and having a throttle does not make something not an eBike, but max speed and power.

People have this urge to classify their limited version of what something is by how they use it with some desire to belittle others, and want to limit everyone else who have completely different requirements and capabilities and desires. eBikes in most US states can be ridden on sidewalks, in bike lanes, in traffic, on trails, and across a grassy meadow. There is no justifiable reason to require someone to have different eBikes to be able to do all those things with comfort and safety and capability and utility when a well engineered eBike can do all of them. That they might be safer with circumstantially restricted speeds, such as overtaking pedestrians, etc. again does mean multiple eBikes should be mandated to be able to do each of them.

In the US, hopefully the next administration will buy a vowel and realize they need to set federal standards and eliminate this hodgepodge state and county and city and park and street and neighborhood capricious variety of who can ride what when and where, and with what gear and at what times and for what reasons. If decisions are made that no one under 13 can ride an eBike, and then only to school until you’re 16, and you must wear a helmet until at least 19, then at least there will be consistent rules for people to argue for and against.

60kmph / 37mph is very fast for somebody who might just be wearing a bicycle helmet (hopefully). If traffic is going that fast, I think it may just not be the appropriate place for a bicycle to be. I've gone that fast on an e-bike before, and it doesn't feel comfortable nor safe.

I agree with having a good helmet, however to be honest my first motorbike ride and car drive at 60kmh were terrifying. Also many people never bicycle even in a 30kmh limites zone because they don’t feel safe.

But I don’t want to downplay speed, as you noted it’s probably the key: most motorbike death are because speed or loose of control without involving any other vehicle. Also small cylinders (< 50cc) are almost absent in the death toll. If suicidal motorbikes with good helmet are allowed, so should be the bicyclists (with good helmet).

> my first motorbike ride and car drive at 60kmh were terrifying

Maybe those should be more tightly regulated.

Suicidal motorbikes are allowed with license and insurance though. Not saying that's optimal for public safety, but that's a big distinction.

I think that's the logical line between e-bikes an electric motos: at what power or speed do you want to start requiring some kind of licensing or insurance?

Yeah licensing and plates would be interesting. Although an e-bike is lighter than a scooter and will make less damage to the other person, the driver weight is probably signifiant too.

Not sure how that works in the US but in France (and probably Europe?) everyone supposed to get a "civil responsibility insurance" that will cover many thinks including accidents on non-insured (legal) vehicle.

People ride analog pedal bikes all the time in places with road traffic and they impede that traffic when they are going slower - I’ve known more people hurt because someone tried to pass them when they’re departing a traffic light or needing to turn across traffic than from falling down while going “too fast”. It’s frequently more than getting yelled at when multi-ton vehicles intentionally pass by you so close you feel the wind push you away. Being able to go about 35mph puts you at a pace where someone in a car stuck behind you is much more likely to exhibit a little patience.

EBikes are popular and growing like crazy, especially outside the US. There’s somewhere over 30 million in India alone, estimated to double in five years. Their presence is not going away, even in the US, but it takes serious time and desire to get protected bike lanes built. Where I live there’s 6 grocery stores within 3 miles in either direction - and all on the other side of a 4 lane road. You end up riding in the road for part of the trip, and it’s more dangerous from relatively heavy traffic if you’re going 15 instead of 35 for even that short distance.

It is difficult to know whether going faster is overall safer. In my experience, some fraction of cars will pass a bicycle under any conditions, no matter what speed that bicycle is going (even if keeping up with traffic above the speed limit), no matter how dangerous it might be, no matter if the bicycle has "taken the lane" leaving no room to pass safely -- for some car drivers, it is about getting ahead of the bicycle.

Why do you think it is bad for communities to set their own standards?

Because if a eBike meets already well defined federal class specifications it is considered a eBike, and not a motor vehicle, and other than setting reasonable speed limits in high foot-traffic areas, local regulations do nothing but complicate life.

Have you ever owned a motorcycle or are you making up dramatic terminology to prove a point?

The quick e-bikes aren’t motorcycles, not even close. Something in the Sur Ron class (30-40MPH) would be equivalent to a 50cc 2 stroke which you can ride with nothing more than a drivers license. Even then hopped up Talaria’s are a pit bike and don’t remotely approach a low end sports bike.

Fast e-bikes aren’t bicycles but they aren’t motorcycles. We already have a term for that, mopeds and scooters. Instead of banning everything the clear solution would be to treat them the same as mopeds (Have to be 18, wear a helmet, may or may not need a license) and call it a day without all the drama.

Disagree, the wattage of the motor is what's relevant. A 750 watt ebike with pedal assist has more potential to cause harm than a 250 watt "emoto" with a throttle.

The whole throttle vs pedal assist distinction makes way less sense than delineating the difference based on power.

Wattage is basically meaningless. There is nk standard way to measure it. Almost all "250 watt" ebikes consume much more than 250 watts of electricity at full throttle, and can produce much more than 250 watts of mechanical output for seconds or minutes at a time.

The fact they listed wattage and actual peak wattage is different doesn't change the fact that an e-bike's power, not whether the throttle is connected to the handle bars or the pedal, is what actually creates fast and dangerous bikes.

If regulation based on power was drafted, it'd be a simple matter of using a voltmeter and galvanometer to see if a bike is compliant with power limits (arguably motors have different efficiencies, but electric motors are close enough to 100% to use this method).

I wouldn't want an e-bike precisely because I can't trust my government not to introduce some new legislation with onerous rules or extra costs. Maybe if they were cheap, but since they cost an arm and a leg there's no reason to get them.

You can get a perfectly workable brand new E-Bike for about $1,000 in the US. While that isn’t cheap as chips it’s also not a major investment for middle class individuals.

The cost wouldn't necessarily be in the bike, but in requirements for mandatory paid registration, licensing classes, insurance, inspection, and safety equipment.

Saving fuel and parking cost adds up fairly quickly if you have a sensible setup.

However as a cycle commuters I’m not sure it saves much money over driving if done wrong. I’ve got a glorious bike. I chew through parts and consumables at an expensive rate.

The distinctions drawn here are particularly interesting in China.

Somewhere like Shanghai, you'll see ~70% of traffic in "bike" lanes are what appear to be electric mopeds.

But if you look closer, all of these mopeds technically have tiny attachment points for pedals. Government regulations allowed e-bikes to be driven unlicensed (but with a special green license plate, unlike the US!) and wherever bicycles are allowed. At the same time, the delivery industry and commuters wanted something stable, capable of carrying cargo/passengers. So the form factor adopted was that of mopeds, while vestigial pedal attachments were provided in order to pass as "e-bikes" under the regulatory criteria. Example. [0]

In practice, using pedals on these made for a clunky experience so they were not usually attached at all. The other main regulatory criterion was that these have to be limited to <= 25 km/h, unlike true mopeds/motorcycles. In practice, these speed limiters were also removed, setting up a cat-and-mouse game between police and riders.

The rule requiring the vestigial pedals was finally removed a few months ago, meaning that the ontology of "e-bikes" is pretty different in China now. [1] (Pedal-assist traditional bike frames also exist, but they share space with the larger mopeds in bike lanes and bike parking. True electric mopeds and motorcycles also exist, but they are effectively regulated out of existence in big cities.)

At the end of the day, top speeds are more determinant of whether different modes of transportation can coexist than pedals or form factor.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/r4HAUJDQT1w [1] https://chinamotorworld.com/chinese-e-bike-new-standard/

I propose a new and improved e-bike classification scheme:

Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative.

Class B-Class infinity: These aren’t considered bikes. Class A is the only class of e-bike.

> And can’t go over 28mph with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph if you’re feeling especially conservative.

That doesn't seem _that_ conservative, honestly. Lots of places have a 20mph/30km/h limit for _cars_ in urban areas.

There are plenty of long, straight, flat roads around town here, where riding at 28mph would be perfectly safe. People driving feel free to go 30+mph, after all. My e-bike's assist only goes up to 20mph, which I can sustain even without assist on many of those roads. I'd guess 25mph would be about as fast as I could go with assist while still feeling safe on a bike.

Fixed for metric:

>Class A: Bikes that can not go over 10mph (16km/h) via a throttle. And can’t go over 28mph (45km/h) with pedal assist. Or set the pedal assist limit at 20mph (32km/h) if you’re feeling especially conservative.

In Australia, the pedal-assist limit is 25km/h (~15.5mph). And frankly, that's plenty.

A major problem is there not being a way a city can legally speed limit a road such that it can ticket cars who go faster than what the bikes allow assisted.

If you take away their legal reasons for overtaking you while you go as far as the bike let's you and there's nothing ahead of you, you've already massively reduced the amount of dangerous overtaking, and you can aggressively police the remaining overtaking for speeding without having to prove they are overtaking in a dangerous manner.

There's not much difference between a throttle and a sufficiently powerful pedal-assist. Switch to your top gear, and the torque-sensor will say "gee that's a steep hill, let me give you a boost" the moment you start pedalling.

Banning throttles just makes manufacturers install token pedals on the motorbikes.

In theory maybe, but in reality pedal assist bikes are far more likely to be compliant with speed and power restrictions and designed to feel like a bike. While throttle bikes are almost always sold as dirt bikes for use on private property.

When I think of throttle assist in an e-bike my thought is not about dirt bikes but instead the incredibly common low end cadence sensing e-bikes that are hard to get started from a stop.

The throttle isn't a problem, the top speed is. A throttle and pedal assist is nice because you can get started faster and more safely from a stop.

Kids riding out of spec motorcycles has always been illegal and always will be. The only problem is that they are a lot cheaper than they used to be.

I have a disability and can't pedal for many minutes or hours straight, but my electric scooter with a throttle is absolutely amazing for helping me get around areas that would otherwise require tons of walking (or pedaling). I guess I'm a demon that needs to be regulated out of existence?

I think e-motos should be as lightly regulated as possible. The regulations on bike paths should be speed, not pedal vs. non-pedal. And since "bikes" aren't regulated but "mopeds" are, you see people avoiding government BS by shipping e-bikes that have "off-road" mode that enables no-pedal throttles.

I personally don't agree with the 25kmph is not enough logic. I live in Cambridge, which has fairly decent cycling infrastructure. In my experience, I''m nearly always faster around town on my bike than my friends driving around, once you account for finding parking as well. I never cycle above 25, certainly not inside the town. And I dont think I would want to share cycling lanes with people doing more than that either, and I cycle faster than most people here. Cycling routes are safe because people are cycling at reasonable speeds to get to where they want to go. I haven't lived in the US where everything is much farther apart, amybe it makes more sense ther, but at least for where I live, 25kmph is plenty to get to where i want to go in time, while enjoying the views along the way.

We have speed pedelecs (45kmph) where I live with extra restrictions compared to normal ebikes which are capped at 25kmph. On the countryside 25kmph just doesn't get you places fast enough.

> And I dont think I would want to share cycling lanes with people doing more than that either

The regulation I wish for is for speed pedelecs to be allowed to use cycle paths whenever the street has a speed limit > 50kmh. Being on a 70-100kmph road as a 45kmph bike is needlessly dangerous when there's a usually idle bike path next to it.

Reading the comments here, let’s take a moment to mourn another technology that so called HN hackers want to see regulated en masse by their big daddy government.

Like drones, 3D printing, and now the simple pleasure of building your own e-bike. It seems like a certain demographic of NIMBY/Karen has taken over and is hell bent against makers and anything remotely cool, DIY, that could even be slightly more dangerous than a game of Pickleball.

Every time a cool thing becomes popular I only envy the early adopters who didn't have to worry about regulation too much, and build their companies or brands when the rules were still light. Then with the resources they get, they can spend some of them on adhering to the new requirements, which newcomers have to struggle with. Oh well.

Gotta keep on the edge if you want to enjoy things or be successful.

Like it or not, if people who aren't big brained HN genius hackers like yourself do reckless things with powerful technology, like a stupid teenager killing someone's baby by running them over with an e-bike at max speed on a sidewalk around a sharp corner, then broader society will hate that technology, and then that woke freedom you crave will get wiped out by those small brained normies. The point is that it is better to set some rules ahead of garnering that hatred, so that the whole practice doesn't get wiped out by the 95% of the public who are those aforementioned idiots (at least as you see them).

But as a morally righteous big brained HN edgelord, feel free to live your anarchist life on a seastead in the middle of the ocean running drones into icebergs and enjoying the whiz of throttling your exquisitely powerful ebike on the deck of your boat if you please.

> like a stupid teenager killing someone's baby by running them over with an e-bike at max speed on a sidewalk around a sharp corner,

Replace e-bike with bike or tricycle and you still have a smushed baby.

Not if the bike goes significantly slower than the e-bike. Which is the whole point.

Idk, I think baby becomes pancake no matter the speed. With my naive understanding of the physics involved, the weight of the teenager and their bike compared to the relatively tiny baby is going to be the deciding factor here.

This doesn't seem to actually be the case. A stupid teenager ran over a baby by driving onto the sidewalk and killing the child there and broader society does not actually hate cars. In fact, last night another stupid person killed a two-year old by my home. The eye-witness accounts are unholy things (you can go find them on /r/sanfrancisco but I honestly am trying to purge it from my mind). It is not actually the case that the "woke freedom is wiped out by small-brained normies" in my experience.

They won’t change their tune unless they are directly affected by China eating their lunch.

In my city, travel habits and condition, I find I wish for more torque and lower speed. Every place I want to go has significant hills that the motor can't handle, and easing climbing hills is the main reason I want an ebike. My ebike's minimum speed for the motor is 15kph, which is ok by myself, but my family likes to go slower, so I have to go fully manual with them. When I look at ebike ads it feels like nobody else cares about these two areas of performance. When I talk to local ebike shops they are unprepared to talk about torque and minimum speed.

I fitted a Bafeng mid-drive motor to my city bike and it's fabulous for hills. Because the power goes through the existing drivechain you can get high torque simply by switching to first gear. No minimum speed, power kicks in after half a turn of the pedals. Coupled with hub gears you can change at rest it's a marvel.

Even at the European street legal limit of 250W it makes acceleration trivial.

It was too early and a bit of a dangerous design, but the StokeMonkey was built for torque and worked great at low speeds.

Some pedicab folks in Austin used to use them.

Hill climbing video YouTube https://share.google/iLrHXvjAKMO4esAux

Design info https://share.google/iLrHXvjAKMO4esAux

Huh, it's you bike have a hub motor? The thing inside the wheel?

Mine sits between the pedals. That means I can just go down in gear and the motor helps with going up the hill.

> My ebike's minimum speed for the motor is 15kph

That is a flaw in your ebike. Weird and dangerous.

Exchanging torque and speed is like the only function of the gears on your bike.

This is what gearing is for. Get an ebike with a mid-drive motor and some form of gearing -- a conventional derailleur, or an internally geared hub (Shimano makes a decent one, Rohloff makes a great one).

Internal gear hubs are pricy but great. I’ll strongly advise against a conventional derailleur with a mid-drive motor: the derailleur needs a thinner chain which wear faster, especially with a motor that apply more torque than a normal human. Internal hubs allow to use a 1s chain or better: a belt. Then you’re good to go for a loooong time. There’s also the (super expensive) Pignon mid drive with integrated speeds, a bit like the Schlumpf’s but for e-bikes.

Pro of derailleur’s e-bikes: their price.

[waited long time to do that] - a former bike mechanist

edit: the problem with faster wear isn’t the risk to break but the decease in efficiency which will affect your motor health (heating) and batterie capacity. If you’re on a budget there’s a compromise: find your favorite gear and replace the derailleur and cassette with a single speed front and back sprockets (and chain). Beware that might not be adapted to hilly roads as GP environment.

> thinner chain which wear faster

This gets repeated a lot, but isn't true. Cheaply made single-speed and 6/7/8 chains aren't any more robust than nice modern 10 and 11-speed chains. Shimano CUES (11-speed) works fine for ebikes.

Belts are fine, but less efficient than well-maintained chains. And they require special frames with some way of breaking the rear triangle.

I wasn’t comparing 6/7/8 with 10 and 11 but with 1 speed. Those are indestructible. But as you noted the quality of the chain is also important.

As for the chain you might be right, but a well maintained chain over time needs more work that many wants to invests. It’s an option for the hobbiest and sportmans but not for most of daily commuters which want something that just work, days after days and years after years.

Also, e bike users tends to user the higher speed way more than others so that sprocket wear off faster than others, accelerating wear even more. I’ve replaced many cassettes with all the speeds almost brand new and the faster one totally destroyed.

> I wasn’t comparing 6/7/8 with 10 and 11 but with 1 speed.

I covered 1 speed in my earlier comment (“single-speed”) too. There are some nice graphs at https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/chaintesting/ (although that testing doesn’t cover single-speed chains).

> As for the chain you might be right, but a well maintained chain over time needs more work that many wants to invests.

Right! Totally reasonable to prefer not to maintain a chain.

Thanks for that link! Looks super interesting I’ll dive into it tonight.

Assuming it's a relatively cheap e-bike with a motor on the rear wheel (a hub motor), that's likely the motor being starved out of phase amps that create torque, rather than the motor being weak. Especially if it's large and heavy Direct Drive motor with no internal gearing. These need a strong controller (power supply) to feed them current, as voltage doesn't matter for torque.

But generally it's not the motor itself that's weak, it's just got a weak power supply (and potentially weak battery BMS. Some controllers tie phase amp output to battery amp input by some 2 to 2.5x multiplication ratio.)

Going from a generic KT 22A controller to a 35A KT will give over +50% torque. Up till the motor hits magnetic saturation, torque scales linearly with the amps. The thinnest kind of direct drive (27mm magnets) can hit 80-90nm too. Most of those are 30mm nowadays and can push 100nm tho.

On the geared hub motor side, the G062 (most 750w bikes use clones of it) can push 90nm before there's a risk of stripping nylon gears. Smaller ones like the G310 may strip gears earlier. These generally need less amps to produce torque than direct drive, so they work better with poor electrical systems.

Worth mentioning that wheel size matters for torque on hub motors. Larger wheels need more torque to climb (thrust). And also motor wattage doesn't mean much for torque (phase amps from the controller and gearing affect that even on bikes sold with the same wattage rating).

I also find the throttle gatekeeping or wattage gatekeeping a bit silly. Going 25kmh by throttle or peddling has no difference in how dangerous a cyclist is on the road. They should cap top speed and acceleration on throttles, but banning them outright unless someone is doing a minimum cycling motion on the pedals is a wrong regulatory approach and limits accessibility.

Throttles above 6kmh (walk assist) are banned across the whole of Europe. Judging by how heavily the Netherlands pushed for the EU-wide throttle ban, and putting my tin foil hat on, I can assume this was done as regulatory capture to ban Chinese ebikes from local stores, as they come with throttles and aren't usually capped at 25kmh on pedal assist. Netherlands produced ebikes are all pedal assist only, mid-drive, and have very poor batteries and electrical stuff for the (over 2x) price they're sold for. And now they have less competition. EU also has a 45% tariff on "e-bike part" imports...

I would also like a regulatory framework to register and insure a faster e-bike (as imo they should not cap wattage and cripple the hill climbing torque, only speed/acceleration) for adults. Right now you can only register one that has a license in EU. If you build your own, it can never be legal, even if you have a motorcycle license and want to insure it. This class of e-bike is impossible to drive legally right now.

L1-b class registration can technically do this, but it needs the bike to be registered in Europe. No e-bike has this. No manufacturers sell class L1-b e-bikes registered in the EU. Only some electric motorcycles afaik.

Doesn't it help changing gears? You can even get sprockets changed to lower the gearing for more torque.

Depends on the bike. On some bikes the motor is mounted in the rear wheel, in which case there's no gear between the motor and the wheel. On other bikes the motor is mounted between the pedals and sent to the rear via the chain, in which case shifting works as you expect. But the latter style (a.k.a. mid-drive) demands custom frames (because mid-drive motors are nonstandardized), which increases costs and decreases repairability. In contrast, rear-wheel motors can fit on literally any frame, so they're much more accessible.

> But the latter style (a.k.a. mid-drive) demands custom frames (because mid-drive motors are nonstandardized),

This is somewhat overstated. Bafang middrive conversions fit on most frames with a BSA bottom bracket.

eBikes are such a game changer. I do most of our family of four's grocery shopping with ours.

Because of the assist, I find myself more comfortable in a wider range of weather conditions:

* If it's hot, I use more assist and there's an instant cooling effect. Much better than climbing into a hot car.

* If it's cold, I dress up to be warm outside and if I start to warm up on the ride, I use more assist. I don't have to try and balance staying warm and not getting sweaty.

* Same thing if it's wet out: I can wear heavier waterproof gear and not get sweaty.

I think we have different grocery habits.

Food, beer, and cat litter would be too heavy for a bike.

A beer run on an unpowered bike isn’t too bad. 2 six packs and a few snacks is just fine.

Important note: if you put a beer in the bottle holder, give that one away and take another for yourself.

2 six packs is 2 days worth of beer.

I buy 2x 24 packs every 2 weeks, not going to work.

But great, I'll bike that home then go back for groceries. Maybe the "snack" I can fit will fuel me.

Sure I could cut out something I love, my one vice. But that's not very American, a car that can fit all of my stuff is.

Yeah, that’s a heavy load. But hauling 48 beers would soon have you looking like Quadzilla if done regularly.

I don’t know how often you’re buying cat litter, but carrying food and beer in a pannier on a pedal-powered bike is perfectly reasonable, let alone an ebike

Are you sure? https://www.r-m.de/en-us/bikes/load5-75/

How many of those have you seen in the US?

None, because noone wants to bike 5 miles for 3 bags of groceries.

I see loads of those around my neighborhood, usually ferrying kids.

At the same time, I don't need to go 5 miles for groceries, so you might be picturing using a cargo bike in sparse suburbs. If your built environment is car centric then almost definitionally using any other mode of locomotion is going to be subpar.

Maybe a dozen or so? But if you only have 3 bags of groceries you can just use a regular bike + basket.

You moved the goalposts, but that also brings up another problem in the US: land use that forcibly segregates different things - like making corner stores illegal in newer suburban developments.

I didn't move a goal post, that is my reality when it comes to groceries.

You realize everyone has different needs right? I stated that in a GP.

We’ve moved the goalposts from “Food, beer, and cat litter would be too heavy for a bike.”

Also, my grocery stores are 0.7, 1.1, and 1.6 miles away, not that it matters. 5 miles is just not very much time at 20-28 mph. I think theft and weather/comfort are bigger obstacles to most people than distance.

But that is what we end up needing.

Is the goal post a few groceries you get for a few days?

I have never seen one of these ridiculous looking bikes in any city or anywhere.

Where do y'all live, a Dr. Suess book?

I will not bike them in the rain, With soggy bags and squishy pain.

I will not bike them up the hill, When every pedal feels like drill.

I will not bike them when it’s hot, With sweat that pours and cheese that rots.

> I have never seen one of these ridiculous looking bikes in any city or anywhere. > > Where do y'all live, a Dr. Suess book?

I saw them every day in Chicago. I see them every day in southern Ontario. I saw them whenever I visited Boston or NYC. Where do you live that you don't?

> I will not bike them in the rain, With soggy bags and squishy pain.

> I will not bike them up the hill, When every pedal feels like drill.

> I will not bike them when it’s hot, With sweat that pours and cheese that rots.

Given that other commenters have addressed basically all of these concerns (waterproof bags, electric assist, insulated bags) it seems more like you just want to be contrarian rather than cite specific problems and discuss if they can be solved.

I have an EV as well as an ICE truck. Powertrain is not a concern. It's the load a bike can carry vs a car overall. The bonus of having storage and rain cover is extra. Sure you can do a lite version but why?

I don't want to risk having an injury on a bike either. A car is much safer.

> Powertrain is not a concern. It's the load a bike can carry vs a car overall.

Sure, an automobile will pretty much always win out in raw capacity, but I'd argue it's a policy problem that makes us reliant on automobiles for day to day life. If people only needed a car for their weekly grocery trip but could bike to work or school or the doctor's office that would still significantly reduce our reliance on automobiles, with benefits in health and energy.

> I don't want to risk having an injury on a bike either. A car is much safer.

Also a reasonable concern, but again more of a policy problem: we prioritize cars over pretty much every other form of transportation to the detriment of everyone else in public spaces. If we had more protected walkways / bikeways then everyone would be safer.

In general I don't think we regulate the safe use of automobiles nearly as much as we ought to in the states. Leaving it as an individual concern makes it a race to the bottom, with everyone buying bigger and bigger cars in the name of safety, all other externalities be dammed.

It's ok! They're not for everyone. My contention is just that there exist bicycles perfectly adequate for the weight and volume of your groceries (and mine).

IMO you don't see them in the US because they look, frankly, dorky to an American aesthetic.

The lifted truck is probably the most American vehicle that exists. The style police can rule on which is the greater travesty.

I live about 3 miles out of town, fortunately directly on a rail trail. I ride my e-bike in to town to get groceries weekly. I have saddlebags on the bike and I pull a kids trailer with the seat folded down and have never run out of room, or had issues with weight. Sometimes I'll even get a few bags of water softener salt. I have a fat tire ebike (aventon), it's pretty sturdy. I've got about 2k miles on the bike, I'd guess half those are from grocery runs.

Pleaser tell me that the bike trail is off road and unpaved.

indeed it is, its a former railbed, crushed gravel. the most dangerous part of the journey is the grocery store parking lot.

For years we’ve been grocery shopping with e-bikes and a burley flatpack trailer. The trailer can hold 50kg/100lbs and we used to live up a steep hill. No problem at all. If it fit on the trailer we could haul it back. 52V e-bikes limited to 25km/h.

You don't think a family of four buys 'food' ? I also get beer occasionally, although sometimes I get it from the corner store a few blocks away.

I do get kitty litter with the car on the occasional trip to Costco because I'm not set on using the bike for every last thing. Just that the eBike makes a lot of things a lot more convenient.

The "food" was a catch-all. Pretty sure that was clear.

Beer and cat litter alone are the heavy items, and don't fit stable in a bike, especially in bad weather.

Plus 2 weeks of groceries, depending on what you need can really add up.

On a bike? Fah-get-a-bout-it. Guess I'd be biking my ass to the store every day.

Or I could live in the present and drive an actual car.

Clearly GP buys 1 day worth of food if he can bike groceries for a family of four.

I had Uber drivers struggle to bike 1 MEAL for my family.

I can get three or four days of food for my family of four on my regular bike with no problem (I also have a cat). I live somewhere where I ride past half a dozen super markets on my regular commute, so stopping at the shop is no big inconvenience.

I think that size of battery would move it into requiring a motorcycle license here in Switzerland, just based on the size alone. And if it goes faster than 45km/h then definitely.

I have my motorcycle license and have been considering getting something that I can ride all day. Only problem is that if it's classified as a motorcycle license I don't think I can take it in the train like a bike if I run out of juice far away.

While I don’t think anyone should be allowed to take a 2150Wh home made battery on a train, I’m not sure why battery capacity should affect classification. Limiting power delivery makes much more sense.

Quite common for Bosch powered cargo bikes to allow fitting two 800Wh batteries and you can always carry spares. They’re just horribly expensive.

I’m very glad my US spec e-bike is 28mph/45kmph rather than 15mph/25kmph limited as I feel much more comfortable taking the lane closer to car speeds on residential roads even if I rarely go above 20mph.

I know we all carry fully charged batteries in our pockets and sometimes keep them in our ears too.

But something about travelling in crowded and closed space like train with a fully charged diy (or even commercial) battery pack sounds risky.

This is one of the reasons I didn't go for a diy replacement of TWS pair with dead batteries.

I would never take that pack on a train (or any other closed transport). That would be criminal, but then again, I think that that's the case for all e-bikes. I've seen way too many videos of packs going up without a warning and there is a ton of really bad advice out there from well meaning individuals who have absolutely no idea what they are doing.

The welds on this pack are very good, I have checked and re-checked all of them, inspected the pack using a FLIR while running at maximum charge / discharge just to make sure there is no hidden jump in resistance or a bad cell. The whole thing is wrapped in shock absorbent foam but it still is a massive pack and if it were to go into thermal runaway there is just too much energy there to be dealt with.

It stays outside and is charged outside and I'm monitoring the cells groups to mV precision to make sure that they're not misbehaving. I'm not taking any risks with 170 charged 18650s, if I would so much as drop or bump the bike I would discharge the pack and dismantle it.

> I'm not taking any risks with 170 charged 18650s, if I would so much as drop or bump the bike I would discharge the pack and dismantle it.

I know it was not your intent, but when people hear this stuff about the fragility of EVs, it really makes them feel safer with a gas motor and a tank of liquid that can take a few dents and whacks without completely exploding.

Full gas tanks are ok-ish, nearly empty ones are really bad.

I'd be worried about getting into a crash on this bike. (still an awesome project)

Sick. Would be interested in any followup.

The off-the-shelf pack I was looking at if I had to make an ebike for commuting (if my employer ends WFH) was about 1100 Wh (about half the homemade pack in the article): https://www.ebikessentials.com/collections/batteries/product...

I have two failed EM3ev battery packs. The BMS is toast after less than 50 cycles over 6 years.

I’m looking for a replacement BMS (52V, 14S5P) but can’t figure out which would be more reliable. I would prefer to avoid buying a replacement from them because I dont think they should have failed so early and with such a light use.

How to find a suitable BMS that does Bluetooth and will fit the existing connectors, including the SoC indicator and power button? That’s an 8 wires daughter board that uses actual SoC information to display the value rather than voltage alone.

Original post and discussion in 2021: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29198205

Thanks! Macroexpanded:

Show HN: Long Range E-Bike - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29198205 - Nov 2021 (615 comments)

I know a guy who tried doing something like this and burnt his house down. One of the batteries exploded and took the others with it.

I was working on an LED project that involved some reasonably-sized lithium batteries, and the guy in the hardware store said "I don't want to hear about you in the news tomorrow". That really stuck with me, and I say it sometimes when I think someone's going to do something dangerous.

Yes, always have a fire plan in mind when starting a lithium battery project. They go up very quickly and generate a ton of choking smoke. It only takes one oopsie with a screwdriver or dropping a cell to start a fire.

That's why you don't touch Lithium Ion packs unless you know what you are doing. I've repaired many Bosch packs before I tried building my own and seeing the guts of professionally designed and robotically assembled packs after they're a few years old is a very sobering exercise in what to do and what definitely not to do.

There are a bunch of youtubers that go out of their way to give massively dangerous advice to people and I always wonder what their liability situation is.

While you are Not My Engineer and <disclaimers> .. are there any bloggers / vloggers that are or at least seem to be giving good advice that you are comfortable passing on?

Found it:

https://www.youtube.com/c/HBPowerwall

I like the simplicity, I don't like some of the wiring choices but I'm not sure if that is to be code compliant in Australia. Enjoy!

Yes, there is an Australian dude that has pretty much seen it all, and he's paid his tuition fees so he's a lot more careful now.

I'll look up his name tomorrow, it's been years since I last looked at that (it's 5 am after a night of hacking so I'm off to bed).

I was just looking for the comment telling me this is _probably_ a bad idea, so thanks!

Driving a car down a busy highway is way more dangerous than assembling one of these packs and storing it in your garage.

Sure, life is all about risk - no doubt about that. But I guess I'm not tooling down the highway in a DIY contraption I built in my spare time with little regard for safety from plans I found on an Internet forum and parts bought from Ali Express.

Not to say that _you_ shouldn't do this ... just be careful out there!

That’s a fantastic build, I only wish e-bike manufacturers would offer similarly spec’s bikes, a days ride is very rarely 30 km, so 200 min or more like 200 km range would be a bike worth investing in. I feel similarly about electric cars too, charging mud route or at destinations is rarely possible so 300 miles or greater are the only vehicle ranges I see as remotely practical. ( yes, I cycle in km and drive in miles , weird maybe) Oh yes an edit - speed, who rides so slowly, those ebike speed restrictions are crazy low.

You can get off-the-shelf ebike batteries at least half as big as the author's.

Speed restrictions are somewhat better in the US -- class 1 is allowed to assist up to 20 mph, and class 3 is allowed to assist up to 28 mph. Both are higher than 25 kph (15.5 mph).

Respect: that's a beautiful pack.

I'm a total sucker for ebikes and built my first ebike around 2006, powered by 40lbs of lead acid motorcycle batteries.

I recently outfitted a trailer with a large battery made for an efoil (my other obsession) where the non-battery components went bad, the company went out of business, and "Hey, this would make a bitchin' ebike battery.

Here's me cruising around the Oregon back country with said setup last summer: https://imgur.com/a/lmvJSBW

Wow. What is your total capacity and range with that setup?

It's weird that these restrictions apply: 25km/h, 55km range? The Evolve Carbon skateboard tops out at 50km/h, and 80km range. Granted, you have to be a little bit crazy to ride that fast on a skateboard, and having owned an earlier version, I guarantee it's not pleasant riding that far on one. But people do it. Someone must be putting out faster/longer distance bikes that don't look like/ride like mopeds.

Okay, a quick google and this seems somewhat moped-ish but 200 mile range, 28mph top speed: https://aniioki.com/products/aniioki-aq177-pro-max-electric-...

Crazy price, but a real bike with 300 mile range and 36mph top speed: https://shop.optibike.com/shop/r22-everest/

The Europeans love a nanny state and ebike licensing is no exception.

Ebikes cannot go faster than 25 kph in the Netherlands, where the author lives. Also they cannot provide power assist without pedalling.

The blue one is actually an S-Pedelec, governor kicks in at about 43 kph and indeed, you need to keep pedaling and quite strongly if you want to maintain that kind of speed.

That skateboard is legally a toy and you cannot ride it on the street. You will be on your own if you cause an accident with that thing. Insurance will nope right out; chances are you will serve jail time if anyone is seriously harmed.

2021?

electric bicycles, are just smartly marketeered motorcycles as bicycles. Give it the health sauce of a bicycle, and the comfort of a motorcycle. You excercise but dont get tired at all, you dont sweat, the bike works for you... to me that sounds like electric fitness, where you do power assisted weightlifting, so that you can do more reps, and lift more weight. Beeing a cyclist who regularly cycles with an unassisted bike distances over 200 km i see no added value of an electric bicycle over a normal bike. Disclaimer, it is a velomobile

I bought an entry level ebike and the range is about 100km on lowest power on flat land, and of course it increases if you drive above 25 km/h.

I don't know what the difference is with what op has, but for me it's no extra issue to drive above the top speed. It's a gradient transition.

I use mine daily and charge it every two or three weeks.

The highend ebikes are actually worse at this style of riding with minimal assist, since they are 30 kg behemoths which ride like shit without plenty of motor power.

The article mentions using Trespa, which I had to look up. It's a type of cladding that is fire resistant but is also not metal. It's a laminate type. The author is in the Netherlands, the infrastructure there must be really good to be able to ride 160km on an e bike between cities.

EuroVelo will blow your mind.

https://en.eurovelo.com/

I think of e-bikes as a kind of "electric horse."

* Goes about as fast as a horse

* Goes about the same distance as a horse

* Sitting on a saddle like a horse

* Out in the weather like a horse

* But no feed or vet bills

* No need for lots of land or infrastructure

* Little ongoing maintenance

* Little skill needed to ride :-)

Faster than a horse at long distances. Humans can outrun horses at distances as short as 26 miles.

If I'd want more range, I'd go with an extra battery in a backpack.

> My first e-bike, a pretty crappy one but enough to get my appetite whetted had a 500 Wh battery, enough for a 55 km trip one-way, and it would be dead on arrival, range anxiety to the max.

What? 55km with a 500Wh battery? Was he not pedaling at all? Why does he even have range anxiety on an ebike? You can just pedal if the battery is low.

Yes, I'm pedaling just fine, thank you for asking.

The range on this thing is not that large even when you are pedaling strongly, it just uses a lot of power. As you probably know the power consumption of a bike goes up considerably as the speed increases, this is NL and while we don't have hills we do have wind, and plenty of it. Add in a 40 to 45 kph top speed and you can see the battery dwindle in real time.

As for pedaling if the battery is low: I have a bad leg, which is why I ride these to begin with, they help me to get started at traffic lights, which we have a lot of. Once at speed I can ride just fine but getting up to speed really hurts.

On my ebike the power consumption goes to zero when traveling faster than 25kph because then the engine is not allowed to assist you past that speed.

Anyway, if you use high power settings due to your bad leg, I understand. With assist set to low or even medium, you can get a lot more than 55km out of a 500Wh battery.

Yes, but this is an S-Pedelec, top speed is 43 and then the assist goes completely off and I am not strong enough to maintain that speed without assist for more than a few minutes on this bike.

With assist set to low or medium I would end up with a hospital visit after a single ride. I have half an Ikea in my right leg, two 40 cm long pieces of steel and a massive number of screws to hold it all together so I really can't risk another fall or overloading it.

E-bikes suck pedal if the motor is not helping. Also, someone going that far is almost certainly doing it at the maximum speed of the bike, and power use goes up quadratically with speed. You could probably do that trip with plenty of power to spare at 15kph or arrive with no charge remaining at 30kph.

It does feel like this is such an untapped market. Think commuters, credit cart tourers, tourism around a spread out city. Something that is safer than a motorcycle and faster than a bike.

In Germany at least the routes are a lot prettier because they go through forests and villages. It's what got me to cycle more and ride my motorcycle less.

It’s only safer than a motorcycle if you have bike friendly infrastructure.

The fact they are kind of slow and you can take them on trains helps compared with motorcycles.

Being in a train certainly improves safety, but being kind of slow is not very safe when you're forced to share the road with cars going at least twice your speed.

It's not safer than a motorcycle. Motorcycles have lights and signals and can accelerate away from danger. Plus the riders are generally covered head to toe in safety equipment, whereas nobody is ever going to wear leathers on a push bike.

The speed limiting alone makes them safer than motorcycles.

Only if the rider is bad. If the rider is good, the opposite is true.

I disagree. A perfect rider is still safer at 20 mph than 60+. There are just unforeseen things that happen, like deer, and the same perfect rider has more time to handle those things at slower speed, and the consequences are less severe.

And this is borne out in the statistics -- there's no reason to believe motorcycle riders are any better or worse than cyclists at bike handling / driving skills, but the motorcyclists certainly die more on average. I suppose if you're an amazing motorcyclists but a shit bicyclist, stick to motorbikes, but that seems pretty far-fetched.

(Safety gear like armored jackets, pants, gloves, and boots -- available to motorcyclists but impractical for cyclists -- certainly helps at the margin. Nevertheless, the stats are worse for motorcycles. I'm not saying don't ride motorcycles -- I have in the past and will again. More speed just doesn't make you safer.)

Man: “How much power that thing got?”

You: “Yes.”

Right after the pandemic of 2020, I joined an “outside squad” of OneWheel enthusiasts, PEV daredevils, and E-bike low riders. We would ride around the city in 70 man packs. It was the most fun I’ve had as a grown up. :) Even broke my olecranon in a nose dive but rode my wheel out of the hospital. Best money spent.

I would be a bit worried that the extra weight compromises the structural integrity of the frame. 2kWh are heavy

high quality heavy 18650s weigh about 2 oz. 190 of them would weigh about 24 lbs. Throw in another 6-10 lbs for bms, wiring, casing and errata and it's not that bad.

I would be more worried charging that huge home built battery pack. I'm sure OP knows what he's doing, but I wouldn't want to bet my house on it.

Bikes typically have a weight rating. Mine has 150lbs of cargo capacity (is a cargo bike).

I don't know if this figures into the engineering formulas, but an e-bike needs to be stronger due to the higher speeds and power levels. On a human powered bike, if you're hauling 150 pounds, you're probably going pretty slow.

My friends who have e-bikes go through a lot more "consumable" parts such as chains, tires, brakes, cogs, and bearings.

There's significantly more variation in weight between riders. If you're under the frame's weight limit, including battery, you're fine.

That's why at https://infinite-battery.com we designed a fireproof and waterproof casing for our repairable batteries

The title should say (2021). Great article.

The aerodynamic situation of a bicycle is so disadvantageous that the easiest way to get a long range e-bike is to simply ride more slowly. People internalize beliefs about energy-range ratios from electric cars, but they don't translate well to bicycles.

What about a velomobile? They're quite expensive because they're boutique items right now, but it seems like using the pedelec classification for something with significantly better aerodynamics would make for an interesting electric vehicle.

It is kind of a shame that recumbent bikes are expensive and bike nerd coded. A recumbent e-bike with an aeroshell would be fantastically efficient and useful in so many situations, but if you tried to buy one today it is going to cost as much as a car and have everybody else sneering at you.

> recumbent bikes are expensive

New recumbents are expensive, but used ones are very cheap. Afyer seeing several within an hour's drive of me for $300, I got a Rans Rocket for $100. Appparently it had been available (but poorly advertised) for two years.

A little while after I became "the guy who rides a recumbent", I was given a Rans Vivo for free, because the owner hhad determined that the expected sale price wasn't worth the time and effort to sell.

They're also a great way to get really badly hurt.

No, that is not true. If you ride a velomobile, you are protected by its aeroshell. Consider it a full body helmet. You are rather flipped/ pushed away, than coming under a car. Of course you are not happy after a crash, but you mostly survive. And you also have other benefits, such as weather protection. In heavy rains you are sitting dry in your bicycle, listening to your radio, where your fellow ebiker gets soaking wet. And did i mention carco capacity :-)

A Velomobile is not a socially acceptable vehicle, it is very fast compared to a normal bike but still limited to bike infrastructure and other cyclists absolutely hate them. Yes, they solve the leg suck problem and if all of the cars would be gone and you could use the roads then that would be a great solution.

I lived right next door to the guys that developed it and in the Groningen country side you could see them zoom by with some regularity. But where I live now I think I've seen exactly one in five years and that was after it had bowled into a mom on a cargo bike... the stigma roughly identical to driving a Canta on the bike path.

Apparantly we have a different idea about it :-) The Netherlands has the best bicycle infrastructure in the world. However that does not mean that it is perfect. Usually the cycling paths are too narrow and strangely routed. And like if you put many rats in a small cage, they are going to fight, and so also on the Dutch cycling paths it is fighting for space. Currently we have here the discussion about fat-bikes, that is the same discussion, and the same non arguments. Those are also e bikes, but with big tires, and they look different, and what is different has got to go away. Velomobiles have another option, and that is that they are allowed on the roads. (according to RVV deel 2 art 4.) and that is what i do in city centers, as i go the same speed as cars. But it is much dependent on the situation. (Did you live next to Sinner bikes ?)

Recumbent trikes have the potential for leg suck, but two-wheelers havee no especial safety risks.

This wasn't a trike but a two wheeler and you can have leg suck on those just the same (low racer, a Zephyr).

> recumbent e-bike with an aeroshell

The term of art here is "velomobile."

Congratulations. I didn't think they could get any more nerdy and yet you found a way.

As Maui said, “you’re welcome.”

The exact same thing applies to electric cars, though -- going slower significantly increases your range.

But cars have much larger constants and linear terms in their efficiency equation and they hit peak efficiency at 15 MPH or higher, whereas a bicycle peaks at half that.

... put your (e)bike on a train, that's where the range come from.

Very cool experimentation but in term of making the practice sustainable best to rely on the infrastructure. It's a bit like in sports having to use the big muscles, e.g. you climb with your legs, not with your fingers no matter what super strength grip you have.

Where exactly is this train that I should put my e-bike on?

Typically by the train station.

Not everyone lives near mass transit nor in a city

Not everyone, no, but the majority of people do, since mid 20th century, cf rural flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural_flight .

That being said, IMHO sadly, most cities do not invest enough on mass transit infrastructure. That's what politics is for though.

[flagged]

99% of the time it's food delivery workers who have to live in the outer edges of the city while all the orders are in the inner city.

The solution to this problem is to run enough trains that they aren't so crowded a bike wouldn't fit. These people are paying for tickets so their usage should be funding the running of more services.

How does this compare to adding a small bike trailer and tossing on 3 12v 100ah lifepo?

Very cool. Thanks for sharing. I have an ebike myself and have considered just strapping extra battery packs to the frame so that I can just swap when required. In the end, I mostly take shorter trips (I’ve had it since Dec and my odo only reads three figures).

Speaking of R&M, I have wanted to get one of their bikes that has the child container area in the front. I saw one guy with one and it looked pretty awesome. A large bike like that would benefit from some larger battery pack. And those have a flat area in front on the frame where you can host a few parallel to the floor (hard in a normal bike frame).

One annoying constraint is that it’s hard to find a place here in America where people won’t tacitly kill children. As more people here become online only child-free characters driving large EVs they don’t think too much about killing children and will only delay someone’s license for a couple of years for doing so.

The hard problem seems to be other people.

> Speaking of R&M, I have wanted to get one of their bikes that has the child container area in the front. I saw one guy with one and it looked pretty awesome. A large bike like that would benefit from some larger battery pack.

I'm planning to buy one of these (Load 60 or 75). I think they can mount two battery packs (2x 800Wh = 1600Wh) on the frame.

I was disappointed to discover that my e-bike could not charge and power the drivetrain at the same time. Visions of range extending backpacks were dashed in an instant.